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Lucumi Attempt to Bury African Origins of Orisa Worship

Mon, Jun 14, 2010

Elders, News, Traditional Afrikan

Lucumi Attempt to Bury African Origins of Orisa Worship

In a new religious document issued by the Oba Oriates of South Florida, the Lucumi community has once again attempted to rid itself of its origins by claiming that those within Lucumi lineages cannot receive, cooperate or refer others for initiations or spiritual work from those of traditional Yoruba lineages. This accord, regardless of what anyone says, is racist, amoral and a violent attempt at quelling interest among White Latinos in working working with African priests and a desire among Diasporan Africans to connect with their roots, while honoring their Lucumi beginnings. This is nothing new.

Years ago, some Lucumi priests suggested banishing the Yoruba language from ritual space. Before that priests were threatened with “ex-communication” for initiating non-Cubans, specifically African-Americans. For years Black apologists (uncle toms) and  naive Hispanics have tried to deny that racism exists within the ranks of the Lucumi community, but this is one of many instances that proves it does. It certainly continues to prove that ego and insecurity continue to drive many.

Here is the million dollar question: How do you separate an Ancestral tradition from its Ancestors? And if you’re so intent on doing so, why not abandon ALL of it and return to the spiritual and religions traditions of YOUR Ancestors? If you, the reader, is wondering the same thing here is the answer:  In most cases, the perpetrators of these acts are not Native American as they would have you to believe.  They can’t return to the indigenous culture of the Tano or the Maya or the Inca. They are Europeans, descendants of slave owners, descendants of conquistadors, descendants of pilgrims, descendants of European pirates. And Europe destroyed most of its earth-centered traditions well over a 1,000 years ago. All they have left is Christianity, and because they know that Christianity does NOT work and that is it NOT a living spiritual system, they continue to “mooch” off of our culture.

If the Lucumi community is indeed ready and willing to banish racism from its ranks forever, it reject this  document wholeheartedly. I know, I know – that sounds harsh. But trying to set back the U.S. Orisa community by 5 decades seems equally harsh, doesn’t it?

What of the legal implications? This document would not only create a vacuum for law enforcement to harass non-Lucumi Orisa devotees, it might throw into question the legality of any Orisa based non-profits and “churches” that are registered with the federal government and the IRS. Why? Because one of the authors played a pivotal role in the Supreme Court decision that upheld animal sacrifice within Orisa as a religious right, thereby also validating the claims that Orisa was a “religion” within legal definition. This legal claim confers to Orisa priests all the benefits of Imams, Rabbis, Priests and Preachers, including the right to legally marry people, protect their temples from taxation and act as counselors to the troubled. This document puts all of that at risk for ALL of us who are not Lucumi. The existence of this document is selfish.

I know there are still many true Latinos, of Native American heritage that know the African as their sister and brother and know this document to be foul, mean-spirited, profit-oriented, and rooted in the historical racism of White Latinos. Speak up now!

Here is the document in question:

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Accord of the Oba Oriatés of South Florida RATIFIED: June 9, 2010

In the city of Miami, on the 2nd day of June, 2010, came together the majority of the Lukumi religion’s Oba Oriatés – directors and masters of ceremonies, consecrations and worship– as well as their respective apprentices, which reside, officiate and perform their religious duties as such in the South Florida region.

The council convened to analyze and debate the recent incidents that have occurred with practitioners of the so-called Traditional Yoruba Religion residing in the South Florida region, and the conflicts and discrepancies in theology and ritual practice that have arisen between both religious systems.

As such, this council came to order as an independent entity that is not affiliated to any institution, and the following resolutions were ratified. These resolves explicitly convey the individual and unanimous sentiment of the religious body of priests and devotees that represent and preserve the religious heritage and legacy of the Lukumí religion in its traditional Cuban form. The Oba Oriatés convened and ratified the following

ACCORDS:

I. The Constitution of the United States of America guarantees the inalienable and unalterable rights of every person that it receives in its bosom. Among these, each and every citizen is guaranteed freedom of religion, a right and privilege that we value and recognize as patrimony of the human race and a fundamental catalyst of this society and all human civilization. All human beings, no matter where they reside, have the right to practice the religion of their choosing, free from the fear of persecution and any unjust measures that violate this fundamental right.

II. As Lukumí priests, we maintain and uphold a religious legacy that for more than two centuries has responded and continues to answer to the fundamental religious needs of its devotees. We do not need to modify, rectify, justify, modernize, nor abandon the theological principles and religious wisdom bequeathed to us by our Lukumí ancestors and the founders of our religious tradition in Cuba, a devotion that we have since disseminated throughout the Diaspora. We emphasize that our rituals, ceremonies and protocols are executed according to the teachings of our ancestors, wisdom that we do not have the need, nor the intention, to abandon or alter to adopt or accommodate the criteria, exigencies or impositions upon our Lukumí traditions, nor the coercive mechanisms of reformative traditions foreign to our Lukumí customs and ignorant of our history, values, principles and heritage in the Americas and the Lukumí Diaspora.

III. Although the rituals and consecrations practiced in Lukumí Religion and in the so-called Traditional Yoruba Religion share ethnic, cultural, and geographical origins, our practices differ considerably. Therefore, we consider both religious systems to have specific, intrinsic and particular rites, protocols, and consecrations that respond to the specific needs of their devotees but are incompatible with each other. As such, each tradition should be considered an autonomous tradition and should remain within the parameters of its own cult and doctrine, thus maintaining a level of mutual respect, and ensuring that our rituals are not confused and/or mixed.

IV. We emphatically reiterate that the practices of the Lukumi Religion and those of the Traditional Yoruba Religion are completely and unequivocally different, and as such, there are no commonalities in the ritual practices observed at the present time that can bring them together. We consider both religious systems to be totally and unequivocally separate and independent of each other.

V. We establish and reiterate that representatives of the Lukumi Religion and representatives of the Traditional Yoruba Religion follow and are bound by separate and distinct principles and procedures as to their rituals and religious rites and protocols. Therefore, each group will have to perform such within the confines and margins of its own consecrations and ritual shrines.

VI. Those priests ordained in the Lukumi Religion that for whatever reason wish or are desirous to be ordained by and/or convert to the practices of the Traditional Yoruba Religion will abandon and renounce any and all rights – hierarchical and practical – within the Lukumí Religious system. We will not recognize nor validate the consecration or the privileges of those priests that abandon Lukumí worship to adopt those of the Yoruba Traditionalists. If they decide to abandon Lukumí Religion and are ordained in the Traditionalist rites, they will lose the religious status they acquired through their Lukumí ordination.

a. Let it be clearly established that any and all persons that convert to the Traditional Yoruba practices will lose any and all rights in our tradition. These persons cannot participate in any of our rites or ceremonies, regardless of the ceremony and/or hierarchical level of the individual or ritual.

b. Any person ordained in the practice of the Traditional Yoruba Religion that was not previously ordained in Lukumí Religion and wants to join our religious community, will have to adhere and submit to our different levels of consecrations and ordination rituals as necessary to acquire the desired status in the Lukumí community.

VII. Lukumí Religion recognizes two types of rituals: private and public. The rites considered to be “private” are those rituals and ceremonies that limit participation to persons properly and ritualistically ordained and/or consecrated in the priesthood, following those patterns bequeathed to us by our Lukumí ancestors. The rituals that are understood to be “public” are those socio-religious events that are celebrated openly and publicly, in which members of the secular and lay community may be present, no matter their religious affiliation, inasmuch as their presence is in the spirit of respectful sharing and learning.

VIII. The Oriatés that freely and voluntarily accept these accords will not accept inside our Igbodús – ritual rooms and spaces in which rites and rituals considered to be of a private nature are performed – those persons ordained to the Traditional Yoruba Religion. In the event that one or more of these persons are present in any Lukumi rite, the Oriaté has the right to cease officiating as long as these persons continue to be present. If the situation is not corrected, the Oriaté has the right to refuse to officiate and abandon the premises where the ceremony is taking place.
a. The Oriaté that refuses to perform a ritual is obligated to return the ashedi – honorarium – before departing. Additionally, the Oriaté must communicate with the Oriatés that have ratified this accord, inform them about the occurrence, and communicate all pertinent and relevant details.
b. All Oriatés are obligated to support the decision of the Oriaté that decided to abandon a ceremony and to express their solidarity with the initial Oriaté’s decision by not officiating in stead, in defense to our religious legacy.
c. In the event that another Oriaté is called to replace the one that left, the new Oriaté has the following ethical obligations:

i. Investigate the reasons that provoked the incident.
ii. Communicate with the previous Oriaté in order to ascertain the details of the incident.
iii. After hearing both sides, determine the best way to proceed. If the circumstances that occasioned the conflict persist, all persons that adhere to these accords are morally and ethically obligated to refuse to perform their services.

The dissemination and diffusion of this accord and its stipulations to inform our priesthood and religious community will be of extreme importance.

IX. All priests and devotees of the Traditional Yoruba Religion may attend our public events and ceremonies as long as they act and carry themselves in a cordial, civil, and ethical manner. They shall not proselytize or employ coercive or pejorative methods or propaganda that would be considered offensive to our religious legacy, inasmuch as that would give motive to request that they cease and discontinue such behavior or communication. If the behavior persists, they shall be asked to leave the premises at once. Albeit, the person sponsoring the event or ceremony has the right to admit or deny entrance to any person or persons to their public ceremonies.

The Oba Oriatés and their apprentices that hereby ratify and sign these accords, are beholden to the task of convening meetings and to communicate to their followers, other Olorishas and Babalawos of the Lukumi Religion in the United States and the Lukumi Diaspora, by whatever means at their disposal, the particulars of these accords. Furthermore, this council emphasizes the need to communicate the particulars of these accords to all other priests and followers of the different Orisha traditions of the Americas and the Diaspora.

X. These accords will admit the signatures of the Olorishas and Babalawos that would like to add their names and support to this council and accords, either by proxy, in person or by electronic means.

XI. It is understood that these accords are public domain, and as such are permitted and authorized to be broadcast by any and all means of communication.

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43 Comments For This Post

  1. Chief Aikulola Fawehinmi Says:

    Our west african Orisa tradition and community do not need the validation of any other expression of Orisa. However, its another example of how there really are many practitioners of african-based religions that feel little to no connection to the source, whether biologically, spiritually, morally, or otherwise. And it is sad for, although we are not knocking on peoples’ doors asking admittion into their sacred space since we most definitely have our own, it makes interaction among different expressions of orisa in many aspects almost criminal.

    Folks do not have to be reminded that all expressions of Orisa and other african-based spiritual traditions and cultures should have mutual respect for one another. It is also not necessary to remind folks that those shouting about being disrespected by other expressions of Orisa have been doing the very same volatile acts against thier brothers and sisters of other west african and diasporal Orisa traditions. This is a experience lived daily till today.

  2. omisaide7 Says:

    Thank you for the heads up! I had no idea all this was going on. Its sad and uncomfortable. Why we have this division? The western world portrays ATRs in a negative light as it is. Can the grand daughter truly disown the grandmother because she gave her mother away at birth. Her mother grew up to be something extraordinary, and she resemblance her grandmother so much in spirit yet his miscegnated stain on her is apparent. Can not they find in their heart to forgive the grandmother. Its time to heal.

  3. OloyeOrawale Oranfe Says:

    Greetings! Congratulations on your presentation on the issue at hand.All African spiritualists nave a moral and ethical obligattion to conduct ourselves with dignity and decorum at all times. Even where we disagree with others, and even where facts support us in our claims and positions,another persons right to their own positions should be afforded them. As human beings we have the right to defend our spaces if threathened.Whenever it becomes necessary defend your space. In the interim allow others the opportunity to enjoy their opinions friendly or unfriendly. TRUTH IS ETERNAL AND TRNSCENDS THE LIMITATIONS OF HUMAN MIND AND CLASSIFICATIONS. Idapo kan! Oloye Orawale Oranfe

  4. Obalade Says:

    You have totally distorded the core message of this ACCORD. Please, do not hide behind the pretense of racism and prejudice.

    Alike the situation noted from 1958, which clear the path for traditionalism to be embraced by those that wanted to.

    This accord is designed to prevent a number of things, to include that that is taken place right now in the northern statesm such as NJ. to wit; the fascimile cloning of ATR ceremonies, with strong resemblance to Lukumi, example: the incorporation of prohibitions done in ithe lukumi ceremonies (mirror, spoon ect.)to the ritualistic traditional passage from Yoruba Land. This is just but an example of what this accord is trying to prevent.

    This accord is not indeed a racist document but an attempt to unite the faith and yet to maintain the individualism of each tradition and diaspora. Shango Society, Lukumi,Anago, Candomble and others. Hence incorporate the individual methaphysical energy of each single to their tradition.

    What is the harm of maitaining purity in your own system without incorporating corrupted (for a lack of a better word)pratices?.

    My intent is not to offend but to clarify, that this document was not drafted for the purpose of divisiveness but unity inh the worshipping of Orisha.

    This is my story and I am sticking to it.

  5. Admin Says:

    Obalade,
    Say what you like, but this document is racist and it is rooted in the sincere FEAR that Latinos and Black people within Lucumi are spending more and more time with Yoruba-born Priests and Yoruba-based lineages. This is a tradition rooted in Nigeria, Togo, Benin and Ghana. ANY attempt at removing, marginalizing, capping off or sub-ordinating that ANCESTRAL legacy is a lie and blasphemy. If this Accord is righteous, tell us the Odu and the Orisa that sanction it. Tell us the day and the Priests that performed the divination. Tell us what the Egungun say about this great divide once again laid out to protect the interest of White Latinos. Better yet, tell what you will tell the child who’s mother is Lucumi and who’s father was initiated in Osogobo? Tomorrow I will be on the phone with Ile Ife. What is the message I should deliver? That Lucumi and Indigene are completely different “religions”? LOL What a sad situation in front of us.

  6. awo dino Says:

    Obalade,
    Your lack of knowledge regarding the religious tradition you claim to represent is only superseded by your lies. We can all see exactly what this is, as stated by admin, an attempt by white nationalist Cubans to maintain control by fear tactics of their rapidly dwindling “market share.” Just like that White jew Niemark, who once actually said Ifa was about market share. Everyone knows that white Miami cubans are some of the most racist people around. We will be waiting for the Odu and Orisa that sanctioned your ridiculous accord.

  7. MSH Oni Sango Says:

    Alafia,

    This has to be the most insane “accord”. I have never read and never would have expected such from members of our Lucumi community. I am a Lucumi initiate/devotee of Sango(18 years of Priesthood). My God Father Baba Funke, an Oba Oriate initiated to Obatala for over 65 years in Cuba and my God Mother Oba Bori, Oni sango for the past 39 years initiated in New York (in the house of Poncho Mora) have always taught me to KNOW/RESPECT the origins of our culture and spirituality. They gave me their blessing to travel to Nigerian (Ibadan and Osogbo) to learn from native practitioners and scholars there even though they were both initiated in Lucumi houses. This is really shamefuland hurtful to our religion/culture. I have had so much respect for some of the Lucumi priest connected to this story, but I am worried that perhaps “fame” has gotten to them. My prayers are with our community and I pray we all find eachother in the truth that is our belief system.

  8. Obalade Says:

    Awo Dino, I do come to you with respect, and yet you attack me. I am a 35 years initiated child of Obatala. Not white, nor cuban. Clearly educated, and patient. I come with open heart and hands, I stand by this mandate. And as such it is my Ile.

    Be well, but remember bretheren, and yes I am addressing you Awo Dino, can you wonder by your actions and offense, why so many lukumis react the way that the do.

    Be well bretheren, and may Olodumare rest love and peace within us all

  9. Admin Says:

    Ol’Orisa Obalade,
    Understand that just as you take the comments here personally, so most of us take the Accord personally. We all know this: A group of Priests purposefully were captured and sold into slavery, those priests brought with them, in their bowels noless, the Ase to recreate Orisa, Abosum and Loa shrines (although evidence suggest there are other traditions too that came).

    Those priests were Africans. They, like their forefathers from West and Central Africa (who came before Columbus), bonded with the Native Americans, culturally, socially, politically and spiritually. Out of the survival of both communities Africans and Native Americans shared their spiritual rites. LATER, both groups allowed well-meaning White Latinos to join them, AFTER they had already begun to accept among their ranks the interracial children of Native-American Europeans and African-Europeans. They expected those devotees and soon-to-be initiated to respect and honor the origins of their Deities and the Ancestors that perfected these systems under the tutelage of other African priests, sages, prophets and teachers.

    Upon the death of these priests many white Latinos and some “confused” interracial (Afro-Latin/Afro-Indian) individuals sought to usurp control of the system. They took advantage of the unethical laws of Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, etc. They took advantage of racism and in some cases bought into it full heartedly! They began venerating and UPLIFTING their own racist Ancestors within the Orisa system! They began teaching the complex and negative color caste system of the Caribbean, Central and South America. They hoarded information, banned Blacks and pure Indians from certain lineages, and when they were cast out of countries through socialist (people led) revolutions, like in Cuba – they took their Orisa shrines AND their racism with them to the U.S.

    They also took their egos. They started saying “Black people darken the experience of Orisa”. How so? Without Black people there are no Orisa! This is how God came to US! We shared it with White people not out of mutual respect, but out of PITY. Nothing in their recent past (1,000 years) indicates that they deserve or have earned the right to worship along side us or through our systems. But this is our inexhaustible love for mankind. Our hope that they will aspire for IWA-PELE before they aspire for Ol’Orisa or Babalawo. For the sake of humanity!

    They brought the worst version of slavery, nuclear war, massive world pollution, world hunger, extinction of species. Let’s talk real now. This is the gift of White/European people. A relentless desire to conquer, co-opt, re-name and build ON TOP of others. Our gift of Orisa or Mami Wata or any other Deity is an opportunity to heal. Any “accord” that creates division or opens wounds or looks like the “good old boy” tactic must be banished.

    All over Priests of African and true Native American descent are saying: This accord means nothing. This accord is evil. This accord is against the African Ancestors and priests that created Lucumi. So, how would you reply? The original BLACK priests that created Lucumi would NEVER EVER suggest that the Lucumi stop paying homage to the Ooni or Araba. They would DISAGREE that Lucumi and Traditional Lineages are seperate “religions”. Heck, they would disagree that we even call this a “religion” expect when dealing with governments and western law.

    We wish you and all others involved Peace – but we’d like to suggest politely that you want peace, you can’t wage war. This isn’t the 1800s or the 1950s. We won’t stand for it anymore.

    For Black and interracial people that support this accord, I strongly suggest that you read our article : A Debt Paid in Full: Latino and African-American Relations in the Orisa Community. Its time you recognize that people of color DO address the politics, even within our spiritual conversations.

    Grace and Peace Are Always Yours.

  10. Obalade Says:

    I see. Hm. I do choose to remain in my corner, for I came with a banner of dialogue, and encountered a barrage of accusations and innuendo.

    I do thank you however, for your well intentioned response.

    Perhaps, after a while and after everything settles, we can argue and perhaps debate the validity of both sides.

    I will leave you but with a thought!

    A long time ago, my grandmother (a very wise Ogun devotee)from a slave village in Loiza, Puerto Rico, told me! Son, in the eyes of that divine power that we call Olodumare, we are all alike. The strongest energy that came was of female inclination followed by an entity that resembles what we call man. But remember they did not have a skin coloration for they are SPIRITS. And as such the see us, their children now. Very wise woman indeed, I do miss her.

    Be well.

  11. awo dino Says:

    Obalade, if you want respect, you gotta earn it. To come on here and say that this BS accord is meant to unite the faith is disrespectful. It is something one would expect from a double speaking politician, not a devotee of Orisa. Thirty five years is a long time to have not learned Ifa ethics.

  12. Admin Says:

    Ol’Orisa Obalade,
    If you or anyone else associated with the Accord would willing to discuss this further, I would welcome it. In fact, if the Oba Oriates involved with this document, along with its signatories, would like to issue any clarifying statement, the Odu cast for the accord or any other comment, I know hundreds of priests and devotees that would encourage it.

    You know my grandmother has some words about race too: “Remember who you are.” Aside from that, we know that race is real, because not only do the Ancestors uphold it, but because it can be pinpointed in your DNA – which is your Ancestral memory on a scientific level. All we have to do is put a representative of the yellow, black, brown and white nations side by side and turn on some music and we can how race impacts us differently. There is no need to devalue race to end racism. We just need Europeans to stop assaulting Asians, Indians, Native Americans and Africans thru religious terrorism and colonialism and wha-la! racism will be significantly reduced. Afterall, people of color (minus the Arab nation) got along until about 500 years ago.

  13. Obalade Says:

    If by Ifa Ethics you do mean. To attack a complete stranger that have done nothing but to voice his opinion. If by Ifa Ethics you mean to be blinded by racism (reverse or otherwise). If by Ifa Ethics you mean to be so full of hate and ignorance that it blatantly pours through every word that you type while addressing me….well, fellow!

    I rather be left ignorant of this particular Ethical Issue and Lesson.

    I ask you not to address me any further for your words are foul and empty. Without any other meaning but hate.

    Admin, to you, I remind that this dialogue can be continue in a better space in time. Once all has been settled, and minds are open to history, theology and logic. Perhaps, just perhaps.

    Until then, I do bid you farewell with nothing but the wish of blessings, health and tranquility to all brethren alike. Be well, I shall retire from this forum.

  14. Admin Says:

    P.S. Some might suggest that R&R glanced over the whole “snail juice” incident. I chose not to cover it because I do not believe it is the real issue. I won’t go at length online about that matter. I am also aware that two individuals reportedly had their initiations “re-done” in non-Lucumi lineages and that this may have had some role to play in this accord, but I also want to us all to be clear: There are numerous Lucumi priests that have suggested to those into initiated in Indigene, Anago and Oyotunji lineages that they ought to have their initiations re-done to Cuban standards. In SOME cases, the truth is spiritual work should be re-done, but in reality MOST times it shouldn’t. No sect of our traditions has ever attempted to disavow itself of another in response to the least ethical amongst us. Well..except White Lucumi members, who have been trying to disavow themselves of people of color and Africa since as long as anyone can remember.

    So, as unjust as it may seem – the Accord is racist in that it plays to and lives up to prior transgressions against “Black stuff” whether that be recognizing the origins of Orisa in Africa…or acknowledging that the highest ranking Orisa priests in the world are as Black as the origins of Orisa…and are also in Africa. This is an unescapable truth that Whites continue to waylay and refute and they often recruit “us” to do it. But the reality is that if we aspire to evolution, good character and fellowship with the Creator, we wouldn’t really care if the Araba is in Ile Ife and not Miami, would we? We’d do our part as SERVANTS and keep it moving.

  15. onidide Says:

    I dont usually get involved in online debates about orisa or the religion…but i am floored.

    I am an initiated active working lukumi priest. I wont go into a long diatribe about how many years or what elder i moyuba. I will say this, Lukumi is lukumi and everything else is everything else, and that is fine too. anything that deviates from what is fundamental to the established rules of regla de osha-is an invention. i dont invite non lukumi initiates in my room and I dont go into there’s. having said that, I am disgusted and embarrassed with this accord. Not only does it not have any merit-it has no authority nor ashe and is a poor desperate attempt to manage and control what cant be controlled….people! worse, it hides itself behind orisa and the preservation of the lukumi religion when this has nothing to do with religion or spirituality -they are all hipocrites! where was they’re voice when the freaks started blending in wiccan, judaism and other new age/spa feeling initiation into lukumi practice? What about those “so-called” lukumis making a commercial fortune on “fantasy” orisa books, botanicas and workshops and obas/santeros selling everything- including orisha, ifa, the anya drums and gender bending conferring of titles and initiations???

    a few things to note: the signers and creators of this accord say lukumi’s cannot do both without repercussions (note… from a body of mortal men) but at the same time says that if a atr wanted to be lukumi- they would have to undergo our lukumi ceremonies! how do they justify this??? and what about those who practice vodoun and palo and may have undergone initiations after receiving osha or may have joined the catholic church and or got baptized- is their osha invalidated too?

    Back to accord #4….how is it possible that mortal men could override orisa and invalidate someone’s osha??? it’s not possible! the only time it is done is when you die during itutu. and other than that it is between that persons osha and them. PERIOD.

    what i also understand from some of the background on this is that -the underlying issue is a few former godkids of pichardo (who i understand are white…now how is this all for irony) got reinitiated into ATR by nigerians. now if this is true…then this is a personal war and has no place in a public forum- and it is unfortunate and dangerous that he would drag the world into his personal mess.

    lastly, ….the creator and signers of this accord also broke a MAJOR lukumi rule by giving a non lukumi -candomble initiate (maria oxala) the “cuatro de santo/the room” several years ago – a RIGHT only given to LUKUMI Initiates! where is the outrage about this???? what is their answer and how do they justify this???

  16. onidide Says:

    let me add.. also hiding behind dead alagabas names and lineages(who half of them they never met or worked an osha with or broke bread nor had a cafecito with) who cant speak for themselves now cause they dead- who would not know what the hell we are practicing anymore … anyways.

  17. Admin Says:

    Thanks for your comments. And yes, you’re giving some background history that is being discussed in many corners. And sure, there is lots of irony as many are saying “hey, you’ve been giving and receiving Candomble work” and now the “Black Africans” aint good enough? Hmmm.

    As for the Black Founders of Santeria/Lucumi, I believe they can speak for themselves through Egungun. Much older Ancestors have done so. But according to this accord, some Lucumi would be in dire trouble if they went to Nigeria and got initiated to Egungun. Now that’s irony.

  18. Yeye Olomitutu Says:

    Ore Yeye Osun O !
    Taking this time to acknwoledge Awodino in respect to US the Yoruba Traditionalist — and Onidide for gracefully representing the Lukumi communities ( well said on both comments )

    I firmly believe that this mess will serve the population who mix both Lukumi and Indegene ritualistists and Ashe together to stop doing this and stay in one tradition — Yes it is TOMATA and TOMATO , it may sound the same , but it is way way different and it never works when you mix them together —-It also brought out the face of the “Racism” and “Greed” in Ernesto Pichardo finally — the white dude do not like to break his bread ya’ll — the economy is killing him and he is lashing out — but little did he knows that this is not his own religion either — the whole religion belongs to US the Yorubas all over ther world — not to the white CUBANS who have no idea where their ancestors migrated from — Oh !! Let us come out and fight for our ancestors and our livehood — but remember this : omo ale to nfowo osi juwe baba re ( the illegitimate child who uses left finger to point at his fathere’s house ) and that is what you are — Ernesto Pichardo ! Shame on you —

    Oworin S’ogbe K’esu Gba !
    Yeye Olomitutu
    Osun Osogboland

  19. Omar Says:

    Folks, do you not know what lead to this accord? People where being re-crowned Orisha. Which one guides your head? The last one which wiped out the first one? Well stay in that last tradition!!!

    What ODU says you can do that? NONE because it’s the out most disrespect anyone can do to Orisha in whichever tradition. Get a life and stop trying to build drama this BS race card.

    Omar

  20. sarencibia Says:

    In looking at some of both sides of this issue I came to a conclusion for me regarding some of the essentials of the arguments.

    I think there might be some concepts upon which some sort of accord might be founded.

    1. Our traditions have as a foundation respect for elders, both physically older and older in initiation and in family hierarchy.
    2. Our traditions have as a foundation that communication with Deities through divination, and that using divination as a guide for behavior and action, especially ritual action, is fundamental and essential.
    3. Our traditions have as a foundation that one acts ritually in concert with the sanctions and permission given by one’s spiritual elders.
    4. Our traditions are essentially oral traditions, and though much has been written, these writings are not guidelines for practice, nor are they an essential part of the traditions.

    This being said, what of accusations and bandying about names of established elders who repeatedly and at no little cost to themselves have gone out on a limb for the traditions? And even if they hadn’t?

    What of apparent disrespect and snappy responses in internet fora? Is there anyone who would speak face-to-face in this manner?

    What of the activities underlying these exchanges and the Accord put forth by the oriate? That individuals departed their ile without permission of an elder who was determined by divination, and without the sanction of divination got ceremonies done, and that the ceremonies were done without one elder conferring with the other?

    Does an elder, or group of senior initiates, have the privilege or sanction to guide the direction of their own tradition?

    Does an initiate have the sanction to act ritually without permission and sanction of their spiritual elders?

    Just an idea…

  21. onidide Says:

    Omar….NO… what led to this accord was a godfather who didnt not know where it began and where it ended. the FACT of the true matter is he has a deep down personal beef with his former god kid and could probably/highly benefit more from some therapy than an ebbo. To go after his own godkid born from his orisa and odon is nasty and foul and indicates a deeper problem. What kinda mother or father kills their own kid?? We should not ignore this.

    It would be hard for to me to believe that he(oba pichardo) did not know the character of the person who knocked on his osha door way before… I am pretty sure there was some kinda sign…had to be… foretold on ebbo estera, in cornacion misa…etc. etc. the obas own osha should of /might of stood up and said something.

    There is not an odu that i can think of that says you can..however, at the end of the day it is between the person and their osha…and at itutu we get to find out what they got to say and if they want to go with us…dont we? but one question to you…when people get initated in vodoun and receive a La ve`tete ( a ceremony for the head)…would you consider that to be the same thing as getting reinitiated?

    Also the cuban system of the religion has even gone through its own transformation in the last many years for YEARS, sadly… shyt there are far and few in between “traditional lukumi’s!!!!!!!! we have instead become a reality show like “America’s Next Top Santero” where how many godkids you have, what level of initiation one has, how badd ass their yemaya/oshun/name the orisa possession and spirit is and how many books websites and botanicas they have. I have also seen people from wiccan religions come into the religion over the last 10-15 years- and then do the same thing they are accusing the YTR’s of doing! and I am a “traditional” lukumi (whatever in the *** that means nowadays)

    For me, my fight about this accord is about “being up to here” with EGOMANIAC, CONTROLLING & HIPOCRITICAL oba’s/santeros/santeras- who must have a big vat of purple koolaid sitting around somewhere. Pichardo may have had my ear, if he had included the “shady” obas/santeros/santeras that are ‘traditional Lukumis” in the accord too… and shame on him and those that sat around a table with egos fuming and flaring, plotting a way to control what they cannot.

    lastly omar, it is too easy to talk and frame this about race for me -tho i think that exists. i am a black american woman with ocha…. i practice the cuban lukumi system- i am not pro YTR or anti YTR..-Again, I reject this accord because it does not come from a clean place…

  22. Admin Says:

    Elders do not have the right to guide the direction of their own traditions, because they aren’t “their” traditions. Elders have a right to be the spokespersons for the Orisa and convey the direction in which the Orisa want to have lineages proceed. Orisa and Egun is in charge. Not people.

  23. Ola Says:

    When did Orisha religion come Cuba, This religion was pratice for thousands of years, before even Columbus dream of coming to America. And our people that where brought by spanish slave raider to cuba, brought their religion, drum, food,ritual along with them. but the so called latino that have conflict with their identity, now want to separate Orisha tradition from Cuba just out of greedy. Als Yoruba myself is absolutely insult to diginty of our Yoruba ancestor that brought this indigeneous knowledge to new world. Oya,Shango,Obatala,Osun,Esu,Yemoja, to mention few were all our part of our identity as Yoruba. Many Yoruba people were always happy , when we see how our Tradition is spreading among our African brother in diaspora
    please Oba Pichardo dont separate people, bring people to together in sake of Irunmole. Ire o Orisha agbe wa ooo Aseeee

  24. Jeff Says:

    Dear Forum,
    As one of the Lukumi who signed the accord, I feel the need to address several points discussed:
    1. Neither of the two re-initiated priests are godchildren of Ernesto. The Obatala Priest who was re-initiated to Yemaya is the god-daughter of an Oshun priestess.
    2. Honestly, to bring up the race card is dishonest. Firstly, the accord was signed by Obas from different ethnicities– “white” Cubans, Afro-Cubans, Americans, and several other ethnicities. It was not driven by any particular racial slant. Secondly, Ifatokun Awolola—Charles Stewart—is Afro-Anglo-Dominican; Radames is Afro-Cuban, and the priests who underwent the ceremonies are of Cuban and Hispanic descent.
    As far as I can tell, the only Yoruba or black priest/priestess who could entertain such a conversation of discrimination would be the Yeye Oshun of Lagos, and no one has seen any posts from her. For that matter, I have not seen any posts from Yoruba (of Yoruba Ethnicity) Orisha worshipers in the US or in Nigeria addressing this issue.
    In response to the comments by Onidide, I totally agree that we need to clean up the shady behavior among “so-called” lukumi priests and priestesses. I think this is something that plagues all orisha worshipers around the globe. One of the Beauties of Orisha Worship is the inclusive nature of tradition, but it is also one of its greatest downfalls. Let’s focus this discuss another way, how many of us don’t know of someone personally who went through shady initiations? I remember those who were given orisha pots with images of catholic saints inside them. How about those who were initiated by one person with no one else present or those who initiated by priests no one knew, and after calling Yorubaland, or Cuba, were told that person had never completed their initiations. The list goes on and on. How do we preserve our religious integrity among and between the traditions? That is the question.
    The accord is only an attempt to define what the Lukumi community in South Florida Understands to be within our tradition, what we accept as part of our practices, protocol and observances. It leaves open free choice of religion and association. Each of us must follow the road chosen by our Ori. Some will be within the LUkumi system, some in other systems.
    While I don’t agree with all of Yeye Olomitutu’s post, one point that I firmly support, is that we have a mess on our hands. People practice some tradition, some lukumi, some other diasporic version, they mix, they match, they leave things out. They create their own versions – here in the USA where is power is so important – to substantiate their significance.
    Perhaps we need to step back and say,, “shouldn’t each of the traditions” be enough to provide for the spiritual and material well-being of a practitioner ? Today we have the beauty of our differences, If you are Lukumi and you are a child of Osumare, then join the traditionalist and be initiated in Africa, or in Brazil among the Gege. If you’re a child of Olokun, great the temple in Africa is your home. We need to understand our traditions to appreciate the beauty of others.

    Regards, Jeff

  25. Jeff Says:

    I am saddened to see that my post was removed.

    Regards, Jeff

  26. Admin Says:

    Jeff, all comments on this site are moderated. I haven’t had a chance to read your full comment, thus it was not posted yet. Gimme a minute and I’m sure it will be up.

  27. Admin Says:

    Jeff,
    I want to start by saying Modupe for commenting. I think it takes a lot of courage, especially since most people that have discovered the Accord are opposed to it. I want to comment, but I am going to wait because I will be able to grant something more important to you very soon – input from at least one, if not more, Yoruba-born Awo. It may take a few weeks. But hang tight. The interest is there and we’re making arrangements as we speak.

  28. onidide Says:

    Jeff, thanks for your reasonable post. Your concerns about the religion becoming a hodge podge (hence the africans) ALREADY HAPPENED YEARS AGO with those who came in with their wiccan and pagan ways!!! This has been the same conversation and worry for at least the 15 or so years i can remember.!!!

    I disagree with your assessment that race is not an issue intentional or unitentional. To dismiss it- especially if there is enough people who are saying it is- only puts up barriers to have REAL conversations. Just because the united nations was there does not mean race did not factor in.

    If I stand corrected I can hear that, I understood from several posts floating around that the three were former godkids….are you saying none of them ever were and no ties to otan??

    The troubling part of this accord and the war waged is that the tactics used by pichardo and his PR Team is not only unprecedented but…. psycho. REALLY??!!! do we really want to post a search warrant with the persons address and “their secrets” on the world wide web —even if it is a public document??? seems far, desperate and a mean spirited reach, worse, it demonstrates bad character. And when someone asks him or challenges a position to anyone from that camp they then say “we dont have to answer to non YTR’s or they are being disrespectful and want a ocha resume on who made them and their elders as if it really fricken matters on the internet! I have asked and I am lukumi. not pro YTR- but not anti either. I just think the public war waged by pichardo is bizarre. what happened to putting people in pots???? geesh!

    lastly, ramos explanation regarding “giving/presenting the room” to a candomble -non lukumi initiate priest does not hold water. no matter the “similarities” – and cannot and should not be justified or rationalized away. He essentially did the same thing he is accusing the YTR of doing… it’s that simple.

  29. onidide Says:

    * correction “we dont have to answer to YTR”

    Also…if they were NOT his godkids or related by otan…why on earth are they making a stink about getting their/”elders” blessings first?? what is the need ? and if they were his godkids and were no longer working with them why would they still need their blessings and do you realllly think they would of gave it??

  30. Jeff Says:

    Hello,

    thank you for posting my comments. I am also aware that Awo Osa Meji ( a cuban Lukumi priests who has strong ties to OYO and has received numerous ritual there) is currently in Yorubaland visiting with Elders and discussing not only the accord, but also the complex issues that surround the initiation rites perform at the ile in question. Based on my personal conversations with Osa Meji, there some concerns about the Orthodoxy of these rites even within the Yoruba Traditional framework. I do not feel comfortable to comment any further on this as I have not been present at a YTR ritual in Yorubaland. Howwever, it would be my pleasure to update the forum on anything Official that is delivered from Oyo.

    Regards, and thank you for posting my comments.

    Jeff

  31. Oshun Dayo Says:

    I’ve read the accord several times and I failed to see any racist remarks. Can they specifically be pointed out by anyone?
    I read a lot of comments about white Cubans. There are many black Cubans in this tradition as well. As well as black Puerto Ricans, and African Americans.

  32. awo dino Says:

    If you fail to see the racism in the accord, it is not because it ain’t there. The insipid denigration of all things African is part of the long history of racism. Trying to say that Lucumi is a separate religion is racist. How many black Cubans, etc., agree with this “accord?” one or two maybe. Here are some of his thoughts on this.
    A conference was held on the issue, but the two cowards who instigated the whole thing didn’t bother to show up. Nothing was achieved at the conference, but everyone agreed to come together for another one and try to work things out. This accord was nothing but an underhanded attempt to sabotage that by the cowards. In Ifa, meetings are public, not private. Pope Pichardo would like to set up his Lucumi Vatican in Miami. It ain’t gonna happen. This was a shameful denigration of others who were not present because of the accord writer’s cowardice. We all know how Ifa feels about denigrating others when they are not present to defend themselves:
    Ifa says, If you attack a person who is not a threat to your community you sow the seeds of your own destruction. Ifa also says, May any person who attacks the innocent live long and suffer.
    The idea that because we have different rituals etc, makes us different religions is stupidity. the object of ritual is to go in possession with Ela. It doesn’t matter if the way we do that is a little different. The structure of the religion is such that the Oni of Ile Ife is our spiritual leader and the Awoni of Ile Ife ste policy. What Pope Pichardo and the writers of this secret accord have done is usurp the power of the Oni and Awoni of Ile Ife.
    You’d have to be an idiot to not see that these guys are acting out of economic self interest.
    Ifa/Orisa is an inclusive spiritual path. There are significant liturgical differences in Ifa in Nigeria and no awo is ever excluded from ritual. To make an accord of exclusivity is to impose the Catholic system onto our religion. This will not stand.
    And it is important what Onidide has stated regarding Willie Ramos, one of the chief hypocrites who complains of something he himself has done for a long time. this accord is shameful and laughable except that it has hurt those who have been excluded and attacked. Anyone who supports this accord has zero knowledge of the religion in question. As for the BS idea that Osa Meji is in Yorubaland and they are in agreement, that is beyond ridiculous. If he wasn’t there, how can he comment on what happened? that is called gossip and is taboo. Jeff, if you knew anything about the religion you would know that. It is also against protocol to talk about someone who is not there to defend themselves. So what exactly is Osa Meji gonna do? Your lack of knowledge of basic Ifa ethics is palpable.

  33. awo dino Says:

    Omar, No one was “re-crowned.” This is a lie put out there to obfuscate the situation. They had Orisa from Lucumi and received another Orisa from the traditionalist. This is normal and perfectly acceptable, unless you are trying to protect market share…

  34. Jeff Says:

    Hi Onidide,

    I’ll try to respond –
    I personally know three of the godchildren( i dont know the 4th) in question. None of them have anything to do with Ernesto as far as I know, the Obatala priest was a initiated by an oshun priestess, her husband was going to be initiated by maurico, a yemaya priest.

    actually, this became an issue for several reasons. Lets look at the dynamics –

    1. I think there is a growing concern with practicing in two religious streams at the same time. (I just kinda thought about this as a stream). The re-initiated priestess wants to participate as an obatala priestess in a lukumi ceremony, and as a yemaya priest in the traditional rituals. She wants to salute the Lukumi drums as an obatala priestess today, and as a yemaya priestess tomorrow. She gets mounted with Obatala at a LUkumi ceremony, and with Yemaya at a traditional ceremony. While, there is nothing wrong with more than one orisha visiting your head. The dichotomy of the issue is what concerns many.
    2. There was no racism or segregation with Charles’ house before this incident. He had attended many lukumi ceremonies, (he is initiated to Yemaya in Lukumi), drums and other functions. Actually, for the record, I am very pro-YTR. As I said in another post, I had interacted with and shared with many who have been initiated in Yorubaland. Th Awise of Ife was at my home in the mid-1990.. I believe in open and honest communication.
    3. Actually, the snail issue is one being pursued by the federal government. Tt ended up being an item of conversation b/c of the young lady who is still sick from drinking the liquid.
    4.The room and other rituals – Here again, is where I think we need to establish some guidelines/boundaries. I have shared the room with many who have been initiated in Yorubaland or Brazil. When I look at this logically, each of the traditions have particular protocols, ceremonies and ritual expectations. Is an obatala initiation the same in Oyo, Ode Remo, Lukumi, Candomble, Anago ?? I believe not.. that begs the question, – who interchangeable are our initiations ? I am being to hold a position that not as interchangeable as some would like. And I hold this position both because of the complexity of ritual and myth. and perhaps more importantly, because of community. Ill try to post more laters.

    Jeff

  35. Admin Says:

    I will be posting a short statement from an active Awo in Ile Ife within 4 days.

  36. awo dino Says:

    Jeff, why do you insist on disrespecting Oloye Fatokun by calling him Charles? That alone shows who and what you are. So as you try to front as a reasonable articulate individual two things give you away. One, your disrespect in not acknowledging that Awo Fatokun has a name in Ifa and it is valid. second, your palpable ignorance of the religion.Such as the assinine idea regarding “the dichotomy of the issue,” whatever thayt means. there is absolutely nothing wrong with receiving different Orisa in different manifestations of the religion. that is so stupid it doesn’t even deserve a response.
    2. we are not talking about racism in awo Fatokun’s Ile! it is in the Lucumi community. what the are you talking about? I also have black “friends,” like at work. that’s what all whites say when caught with there hand in the cookie jar.
    3. straight up lie. The feds abandoned that investigation as soon as they found out it was bs. unfounded. and if the woman was indeed taken ill, why aren’t there charges? You lie. she did not get sick from drinking the liquid. people been drinking omiero fro centuries.
    4. again, there are great liturgical differences in Nigeria and awo are never excluded from ritual. Your argumants are well reasoned nonsense. You have no authority and no basis and no odu on which to stand. don’t even come with your weak ish.

  37. onidide Says:

    Jeff,

    “pursued by the Federal gov’t” But is the rallying cry for pichardo and his PR team to unite *his* followers..to make a case against charles. If you dont see anything wrong with this. I question your character too. And REALLY??!!? if it is a federal investigation what on earth was Pichardo a civilian oba and outsider doing interviewing her and recording it? you dont find that strange?

    As far as the room, there need not be any new guidelines, it has already been established before me and you and pichardo and ramos. the lukumi rooms is for lukumi initiates. sounds like you guys are picking and choosing which rules of osha needs tweaking.

    I am done with all ya’ll. please list the names of the Oba’s so I know WHO NOT TO LEVANTE for any of my ceremonies!

  38. jeff Says:

    awo dino,

    first, please do not put words in my mouth. If you will re-read my post, I only stated that Osa Meji is in Yorubaland and he is discussing what is going on in miami. Since, I do not know you, I have no idea if you know Charles, or Osa Meji,,- I will respond like you don’t. I only mentioned that he was in Yorubaland, in relation to the admins comments about receiving a message form Ile-Ife. Secondly, Osa meji, Charles and the Yeye have known each other for several years, this is not an awo who does not understand what is going on. He is very aware and was invited to participate in Egbe and Ogboni ceremonies as he received them in Oyo.

    Again, I will clarify, I did not say that Yorubaland was in agreement or in disagreement. As I stated in my first post, the most interesting part of all of this, is that there are no Yorubaland voices in this controversy.

    I totally disagree with your comment about because our traditions have different rituals we are not different religions. it depends on how you define a religion, – If we look at the history of other world religions, differences in ritual and theology are definitely examples of different religions. The entire protestant reformation is an example. As I’ve said before, the variations between sunni and Shite is another, the list goes on and on.

    It is exactly how you see the structure of your tradition, and how you define community that determines how you see your religion. I would venture to say that very few if any of the diaspora traditions see the ONI and the Awoni as the leaders of their religion. Clearly, all of the traditions in Brazil, trinidad and Haiti did not keep the Ifa tradition. Therefore, mentioning Ifa basic ethics would be an interesting conversation in any of these diaspora communities. as far as my own education, I do not believe I mentioned anywhere that I was knowledgeable in the protocol of Ifa. However, as I stated before, I will provide what message Osa Meji delivers from Oyo.

    OMAR – Awo dino’s response may be acceptable within the traditionalist framework, but within the Lukumi tradition, this is re-ordination, and is NOT acceptable. Our religious protocol does not accept this type of ritual.

    Regard, Jeff

  39. Admin Says:

    I want to remind everyone – both initiated and uninitiated are reading our posts. Both Devotees and casual seekers. Lastly, if a person has been initiated, I have to agree – please call them by their initiated name, whether you respect them or not. I will leave comments open one more day, after that only comments written as articles, that identify their authors by full name will be accepted.

  40. Oshun Dayo Says:

    Awo Dino,

    You say that maybe only 1 or 2 black Cubans are in favor of the accord? My question is, how do you know this to be a true fact?
    I find this difficult if not impossible to be a reliable statement.
    Again, I ask, where in the accord is there specific racial language?
    If it cannot be specifically pointed out, then your assertion is moot.

  41. Jeff Says:

    awo dino,

    There is no disrespect for awo Fatokun (Charles). Do you personally know him ? I do. We have talked, shared and know each other personally. I call him charles, like I call myself Jeff. I usually only refer to initiates by their Osha names or titles in religious activities. But, I have no problem doing that. For the record, I am an obatala priest intiated for 20 years, in the the lukumi religion since i was born. I have traveled to Brazil, Cuba and Trinidad and have studied, Lukumi, arara, Iyesa in Cuba, – Ketu, Anago, Ifon and Gege in Brazil (been to Bahia, Sao Paulo, and Rio for ceremonies. Visited Orisha shrines in Trinidad where i attended Sango festivals, and the festival to Saint Ana. I have attended traditional ceremonies in Miami and Chicago. I have been fortunate to See Orishas, Vodun, Laos and the mysteries of Santo Domingo in possession.
    I will begin to use my initiate name from now on. In the spirit of dialog, I will continue along. I have four points for consideration:
    1. You state ” there is nothing wrong with receiving different orishas in different manifestations.” This is a very general statement, and I do not believe anyone can speak to the does and don’ts and each of our traditions. In Lukumi it is ok to receive an orisha, but in our world-view it is not ok to be re-initiated. This is your belief, but not ours.
    2. Now are we taking the racism conversation to the next level. Its not the Oba’s who signed, nor is it the accord that is racist. Its the ENTIRE Lukumi community. Such commented are grounded in propaganda and alarmist. Dear Awo Dino, – Have you ever been to a LUkumi ceremony and seen, Cubans, African Americans, hispanics, white americans and many others participating ? If not, it would be a pleasure to take you on such activities in Miami, or at my god-sisters house in Chicago,, or Perhaps my extended religious family in New York or Los Angeles. I really find such all encompassing comments basically rude.
    3. I would appreciate if you’re responses direct at me, did not take on the character of personal attachs. “You Lie” – is not acceptable in this or any other forum. I did not lie, – I have heard the young lady speak on two occasions. If she has not been sick, she is the one who is perpetuating a lie. As for the federal investigation, I have no information as to what the govt is doing about the charges. Since you seen to be aware of the facts, could you please refer us to the dispensation of the case.
    4.again, if there are liturgical differences among Ifa is Africa, that is a conversation for the Awos. I have no knowledge of what is acceptable amonng the different liturgical traditions in Yorubaland. However, in Lukumi Orisha worship it is not acceptable. I will leave the response open to the Cuban Babalawos to respond.
    5.Now in reference to the Honorable Oba Okunade Sijuwade, – who unfortunately, I have not had the privilege of meeting. I understand he is a strong defender of Yoruba culture and history and a Devout Christian.
    6. Since you make reference to “authority” , “basis” and “Odu” to stand on. Would you please enlighten us on what Odu ? authority or basis you stand on, to make the comments about “all orisha ceremonies/rituals are the same. Please support your case.
    7. Protocol. You mention that it is against protocol to talk about someone who is not there to defend himself. I must assume that applies to the Web. I would then consider the comments about Oba Pichardo and Oba Ramos to be gossip. Additionally, all comments about what occurred at the signing of the accord would be considered gossip, since you were not at any of those meetings. And since you have never identified yourself, I must also assume that talking aobut Ifatokun, and those involved in this process is also gossip as you do not know them, nor were you a participant in any of their ceremonies.

    Onidide – At last count, every functioning Oriate in Miami has signed the accord, along with Oriates in Tampa, Orlando, New York, Oyotunji, and Cuba.

    Regards,
    olubanke

  42. awo dino Says:

    Jeff, If you know anything, you know it is disrespectful to refer to Oloye Fatokun as Charles, yet you continue to do so. and you response to Omar is pure bs. lucumi does it all the time. lots of folks have orisa in lucumi and traditional, many lucumi also have prenda from palo, etc. your propaganda is ridiculously transparent. and yes you did infer that elders in yorubaland were agreeing with the accord. – “based on my personal conversations with Osa Meji, there are some concerns about the orthodoxy of these rights even within the Yoruba Traditional framework.”- it is right there in your post. so how you gonna say you didn’t? your examples, especially of sunni and shia are beyond misinformed. Lucumi comes from Yorubaland. the technology for connecting to source are the same. the orisa are the same. to say they are different religions is silly. Let’s call red red and black black. No one is fooled regarding the intentions of the cowards who wrote this accord, who didn’t have the iwa pele to show up at the conference, but meet behind closed doors to undermine the efforts of those who did come together.

  43. jeff Says:

    Awo Dino,

    This is will be my last exchange with you. In every single post, you have answered none of my questions, avoided identifying yourself,, dismiss my examples without examples bring you refer or your sources to your comments. Clearly, you do not want to have a conversation, you want to incite emotions, not discuss facts. As an example “lots of folks have Orisha in Lukumi and traditional” – Really ? please define “lots” – Do you know any personally, could you refer me to one, or a community that practices in that way ? I on the other had, have participates in hundreds of Lukumi initiations, in Miami, Chicago, Michigan, Los Angeles, Havana, and Matanzas. I am more than willing to identify my brothers all over the US. and my numerous godchildren in Havana and Matanzas. I have yet to meet a Lukumi who practices both traditions. I have met several cuban babalawos in Miami and Cuba who have received Egbe, Odu and initiated to Ogboni.

    Awo Dino – How about bring something of substance to this conversation. Where is the basis for your conversation, recite the odu. How about identifying who you are, where you were initiated, where do you practice. What community are you are part of.

    Again, as I said early, the accord was not signed behind closed doors, the lukumis in miami were invited.

    Finally, as the administrator has request.

    Sincerely,

    jeffery Gonzalez ‘olobatala’, Olubanke. Initated in miami Florida. in 1990.

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